S1.E4 | Nwabisa Plaatjie: Empowerment and Sustainability in South African Theatre

S1.E4.

Award-winning South African playwright/director Nwabisa Plaatjie shares gems from her artistic journey as a theatre maker from a long line of storytellers.

From her groundbreaking work in Cape Town to her roots in rural South Africa, Nwabisa shares how she's reshaping cultural narratives, fostering community connections, and redefining self-care.

Nwabisa Plaatjie is an independent producer, theatre-maker, and director based in Cape Town, South Africa. She holds an MA in Theatre and Performance from the University of Cape Town, and her practice draws from traditional oral storytelling practices to create plays that challenge systemic discrimination in the theatre sector.

Her artistic prowess and leadership have been recognized through various special grants and commissions and support the creation of nine original pieces, with two touring internationally.  

Her latest play, Ziyana, was created through the support of the International Network For Contemporary Performing Arts’ Local Journeys for Change, Georgetown University’s Laboratory for Global Performance and Politics, where she was a Global Fellow, as well the Institute of Creative Arts, and encouraged her to make various contributions in the National Theatre and Dance Policy “Breathing New Vision into Theatre and Dance in South Africa.”

Nwabisa is devoted to stories, people, and culture. She is an alumna of the Mandela Washington Fellowship [2020/21], an IETM Global connector [2022] and an ISPA Global fellow [2022 and 2023 cohort].

From 2018 to October 2022, she coordinated and curated the Baxter’s Masambe Theatre, driving its relaunch as a space for performance, collaboration, mentorship, and networking.

In 2023 she launched her “An artist is made” project, celebrating community and recognizing the role of social and cultural capital in our creative journeys. The project was funded by the National Arts Council and included plays, workshops, an archiving project, and community building platforms. 

Want to be a guest on KeyBARD? Send Thembi a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1740803399472257afce75768

KeyBARD is produced, written, and hosted by Thembi Duncan.
Theme music by Sycho Sid.

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Chapters

• 0:22 Biography
• 2:14 The Journey to Professional Theatre
• 4:38 Directing FLORENCE and WINE IN THE WILDERNESS
• 8:07 Universal Themes in Theatre Ecosystems
• 10:24 Mentorship and Leveraging Experiences to Produce Theatre
• 13:39 Sustainability in South African Theatre
• 15:40 Motherhood and Shifting Priorities
• 19:45 Intentionality in the Creative Process
• 21:20 Professionalization in Theatre
• 25:22 Developing a Process of Reflection
• 30:40 Continuing a Lineage of Storytelling
• 31:47 FRAGMENTS and XHALANGA BLUES
• 33:22 A Perfect Play for the Covid Era
• 35:47 Shifting Perspective on Promotion and Pitching the Work
• 37:08 Contemplating the Intended Audience
• 39:45 Artists who Inspire
• 44:48 A Surprising and Exciting Possibility for Collaboration
• 49:55 Ellen Stewart and La MaMa
• 54:10 Infusing Self-Care into the Creative Process
• 1:06:19 Looking ahead

Transcript

Thembi: Hello, hello, and welcome to KeyBARD. This is Thembi, and today I am so excited to be speaking with theatre maker, director, activist, and scholar Nwabisa Plaatjie. 

Nwabisa Plaatjie is an independent producer, theatre-maker, and director based in Cape Town, South Africa. She holds an MA in Theatre and Performance from the University of Cape Town, and her practice draws from traditional oral storytelling practices to create plays that challenge systemic discrimination in the theatre sector.

Her artistic prowess and leadership have been recognized through various special grants and commissions and support the creation of nine original pieces, with two touring internationally. 

Her latest play, Ziyana, was created through the support of the International Network For Contemporary Performing Arts’ Local Journeys for Change, Georgetown University’s Laboratory for Global Performance and Politics, where she was a Global Fellow, as well the Institute of Creative Arts, and encouraged her to make various contributions in the National Theatre and Dance Policy “Breathing New Vision into Theatre and Dance in South Africa.”

Nwabisa is devoted to stories, people, and culture. She is an alumna of the Mandela Washington Fellowship [2020/21], an IETM Global connector [2022] and an ISPA Global fellow [2022 and 2023 cohort].

From 2018 to October 2022, she coordinated and curated the Baxter’s Masambe Theatre, driving its relaunch as a space for performance, collaboration, mentorship, and networking.

In 2023 she launched her “An artist is made” project, celebrating community and recognizing the role of social and cultural capital in our creative journeys. The project was funded by the National Arts Council and included plays, workshops, an archiving project, and community building platforms. 

Coming in live and direct from South Africa – welcome, Nwabisa! 

Nwabisa: Thank you, thank you!

Thembi: Oh my goodness, I'm so excited to talk to you. Let's jump in. You've built a significant body of work in the theatre. You've already written 9 plays and directed 11 plays, as well as curating festivals and working as an arts administrator. Where did this journey to professional theatre begin for you?

Nwabisa: Well, my high school had drama as a subject, so maybe I could say it started there. And then I went to the University of Cape Town, where I did an Honors in theatre making. And as I graduated, Magnet Theatre, which was a physical theatre company in Cape Town, invited me for a theatre making internship. So they invited me to apply. So I applied, and I got in, and so after my university, after my Honors, I was in a theatre and was able to explore with other creatives and the main thing about the internship was that I was only tasked with creating 2 plays for that entire year. 

So then I had a year where I was, you know, exploring with theatre and playing with other creatives. And then from there once people saw the work that I do from the people that were following me in varsity and then seeing me in a professional setting, then started inviting me and commissioning me to direct various works, or to work with other young actors and write material for them.

But I do think it really – being at UCT and being at Magnet, I think Magnet Theatre became the place where I attracted most of my network. They saw my first works and then one led to another, you know, constantly being invited to produce new work.

Thembi: So have you always been passionate about theatre? 

Nwabisa: Not theatre specifically, but storytelling. I grew up in a home with a very strong tradition of oral storytelling. So, I saw my first theatre play the year before Varsity, and my second one in Varsity. Where I come from, there isn't a theatre building or, you know, spaces where I could go watch plays. But I wanted something close to storytelling, and theatre seemed like the closest option. 

Thembi: I love that, the storytelling tradition. So, then you became a storyteller over time, and you learned, and you studied, and you had these incredible experiences. And from what I understand, you've directed two plays by Alice Childress, who is an African American playwright. You directed Florence and Wine in the Wilderness. Can you talk about that process and the connections that you were able to make as a South African theatre artist to an African American theatre artist?

Nwabisa: What struck me about those two plays was that, similar to, you know – Florence is a young actress that wants to begin a career in the arts. But there's this understanding that the white folks are not going to give her that platform. But also her mother doesn't understand this world that he she's about to enter. And similarly to me, I was – I'm entering the theatre industry. And like I said, I'm coming from a very strong oral storytelling background. 

So on one level my parents, similar to Florence’s family, are thinking “What is this thing this child wants to do?” But then  – you know, the other point is “No man, this thing is for white people. It's not for people like us.” And so I really resonated with that.

On another level, you see, was Wine in the Wilderness. Tommy being invited to the space…Bill is painting a tryptic, you know, and so Tommy becomes the invited artist. But it's this idea – Again, I was drawn to that play because of this idea that – the class dynamics when it comes to the Black community. Yes, there's an artist here, trying to figure something out, playing something out. But there's also another Black person coming in who doesn't understand this art, who wants to understand the space, and you start to see the class dynamics between the Black community. 

I was drawn because I could relate with the narrative, and it was something that I was thinking about around really, how do I start a career here? But also, do all Black people not understand theatre? How do -- what are the -- so, yeah, and then I directed in 2019, it was after the #FeesMustFall, RhodesMustFall movement. So I was really thinking about Blacks in a revolution. Really, how do we navigate those spaces, and how do we deal with our particular context and backgrounds, particularly class? 

Again, just trying to have the conversation with other Black people. And I felt, here's a writer who is talking about things that I'm dealing with right now. Really, how to be an artist. Florence, you know, resonating with that, and also with other Black people. How do we relate with each other? What are the dynamics at stake there? How does class influence how we navigate a career in the arts? That was the thing that drew me to those plays.

And then as I read about Alice Childress and realized that this woman kept writing and writing and was like, “I'm not going to stop. At some point, someone is going to find my plays and start directing them.” I think I was inspired. It was it was a – here's someone encouraging me, you know, to just continue writing, even if it doesn't make sense. You're making sense of it through paper, and one day someone is going to find these plays and they're going to start directing them. 

Thembi: That is incredibly inspiring. You've received fellowships, residencies that have taken you around the world to build your craft. What are some universal bright spots or challenges of theatre that you've run into? Because you just talked about these connections in terms of class around the Black community, and that is definitely an issue here in the United States. I'm curious what other themes, challenges, ideas that you see – “Oh. okay, I deal with that, too, here.”

Nwabisa: I think it's around sustainability. I think the more I move around, the more I see actors saying, “How do we actually build sustainable careers with this?” And then, since becoming a mother, my ear is also open to mothers that are trying to navigate being a mother and an artist and refusing to separate those two roles. 

So I'm seeing more and more of those conversations and really, how do we create safe and ethical working environments? And funny enough, what's starting to come up is that I can see how we're creating it for the actors, you know, for the performers. But for the producers, we still expect them to work much more. We still expect them to create that working environment. So really, I'm seeing how we’re having similar conversations around creating ethical work environments that are sustainable, and we are also acknowledging that often when we have that conversation, we're actually talking about the people on stage. We're not necessarily thinking about the writers and the producers, and how do we begin also thinking about the writers and the producers within those conversations? 

Because it's all good and well to make sure that the rehearsals flow well, everyone’s needs are well taken care of. But is the producer well taken care of?

Thembi: That's an incredibly important question, and it's so interesting that you bring that up because I have not thought about that, the way that we do tend to separate the actors and anybody performing on the stage from the folks who are producing the work, and I love that you have. You're refusing to separate those things and you're being very intentional about how to address this issue for all theatre artists and workers. So, that's really interesting. 

You serve as a mentor for young South African artists, right?  

Nwabisa: Yes, yes, but you know, I'm also just thinking about the separation. One of the things that – just before I speak to mentoring other young artists – but just thinking about how I realized quite early that I couldn't be an advocate for the arts and produce my own work, and be involved with policy work, and also have the time to create plays. I realized very early that it was not going to work out. 

So, what I did, and I don't even think it was conscious, is that I started writing exactly what I was doing. I started – so that my plays became about – became about the things that I'm bothered about. So I started writing really around sustainability and finding my feet in policy, where there’s this character who wants to be involved in that type of thing, so that the work that is outside becomes the content. You know, I started to prioritize it as the content in the story that I wanted to tell. And that has allowed me to really do multiple things at the same time. I'm just like – I'm writing a play, but I also understand that I have now spent eight months trying to find funding, and pitching. 

So, what does this play look like? You know, when I think about one of my plays, Kalanga Blues, it became about that. It became about pitching. It became about searching for funding and meeting people, you know? And this and this weight around unemployment and thinking about, “Do I leave this industry? Do I stay? And also, looking around you, so many artists that are leaving the arts to go pursue something else. 

So, I try to not separate – and I think my mentorship, just – then, speaking to mentorship – is also around that. It's around, how do you make sure you create the art? How do you make sure that you know you really leverage who you are, and your experiences, and what you do? Because as long as they're separate, you can spend a whole lot of time trying to find the resources. But if you find the resources and spend 30 minutes later, just free writing, you have something, and material that you can use. It can be a monologue one day, but you've now transferred that experience, to something else. 

Thembi: You've exposed another dichotomy in the work, and that is between the idea of “art for art’s sake” versus art with a purpose to send a message, or to address an issue, and obviously a lot of that depends on who gets to see it, right? Who your audience is. Or who you -- who's allowed to see it? Who's able to see it, who has access to it, and who can make decisions based on those messages. So that's really interesting, the way you connect that to the mentorship of the young artists, because you're preparing them for what they're going to have to experience in the work.

And so, are there questions that they're asking you that are related to those same themes that you're putting into the work with what you're dealing with – the sustainability of it? 

Nwabisa: Yes, but for them it's – I find that more often, you know, it's not like I'm trying to create other makers who create like me, who are going to write about sustainability, you know? But I find that now that question is at the forefront. I find that most of the people that I mentor will either 1. Find someone to be a producer for them, or 2. They really become theatre makers who are producers. Because that question of yes, we're having – we’re developing work, but where do you want this work to go? Who's going to give you money to do the – you know, I'm constantly having those conversations. 

But even when people invite me, I find that that's the conversation they want. They bring me in the room because they want us to talk about the shelf life of the play, you know? They want us to talk about – and I'll ask things, like, beyond the stage, beyond seeing it, how else does this thing live? Are we going to take pictures and have an exhibition? Are you going to record the music? Are you thinking of going to schools? Are you going to have workshops? So already at the very beginning – it's not something that comes later – at the very beginning, while we're dealing with the dramaturgy of everything, you know, you’re also – just making sense of how this might fit within your community. 

Thembi: So, in 9 plays, have you seen an arc or a trajectory of a realization of that? Or, from your very first play, have you been thinking about sustainability? Because you mentioned becoming a mother – congratulations! – and, you know, making those discoveries then, but before you started work as an artist, before you were a mother, do you feel like you've evolved towards that understanding of sustainability? Or has it always been in your mind? 

Nwabisa: It was not, it actually wasn’t in my mind until someone said it to me. And it was a director that I really look up to, well-established director in South Africa, Mandla Mbothwe, who said to me, “Nwabisa, do you realize that you write about the means of production?” (Laughs.) “And you're really – we're watching your play, but we actually get to understand the industry.” And I didn't see it at that time. 

And then my master’s production, what I did for the production I was talking about, where I started writing about the pitching and searching for grants. And – I used an analogy of my plays as – I called them my babies. So throughout the play we constantly talked about these babies, and who their fathers are, and whether their fathers supported them post-delivery or, you know, it's just these fatherless children, you know? So I started using that, this thing, this idea that a production is a baby. 

And when I became a mother, I sort of realized what that means, you know, because I am looking at my daughter and I'm thinking about the type of future that I want her to have. And I realized that with my plays, I moved on too quickly, you know, whereas with Luna, I can see that at 18, these are the things that I want for you. Like, I am planning quite well for her life, and I am there making sure that I attend to all her needs and I'm aware of her interests, and I realized that I wasn't giving the same type of care to my plays. If I call them my babies, you know, am I aware of the nuggets, you know, the interest, the things that are coming up from them? Also, how do I really take care of them? How do I grow with them? 

Part of being, creating 9 plays over, starting a career in 2016, it has happened because someone was commissioning me. It's happened because someone's putting money and saying, “Create a play. Write a play.” So you write, and you move on. The next person is bringing a pot of money, and the only thing that I've always wanted is to own my work. So I'm just like, okay, I'll create that. “I'll do that, you know, I'll write that.” Even with the ASSITEJ program – Fragments, you get selected for this thing, I get an opportunity to be mentored by you, I'm like, “Sure, I'll do it. Let's write a play, you know?” So then in that way, you are producing really quickly, but you're not really taking time to stop and say what's here? What is it showing me? You know, where does it want to go? If it were to grow more over the years, how would it look like? 

You know, I think one of the things that I've realized now is that – last year, I took time to write down all the characters that I've written, and I started to see strange things where I'm like, Oh my word, I can see this child becomes this type of adult. Like, I'm starting to see an arc in the characters and different players, and I’m just like – with that attitude, you’re actually this antagonist that I'm just writing now, with that attitude, you know? And that's  just looking at all the characters – and also realizing that I've actually been writing women, then thinking, like, Oh my word, where are the men in my plays? Where the men in my world, you know? But that comes because I'm now analyzing the characters that I've written and their cultural significance, and the archetypes that I've  been leaning towards. 

Thembi: Well, that's fascinating, to look at your body of work and to ask questions and kind of interrogate your own thought process around who you're creating and  how they show up in the world. Does that lead you towards any sort of intentional creation as you continue writing? Do you now feel like – like you just said, “Where are the men?” Do you now feel like, Okay, I'm going to intentionally write more men into this next project. 

Nwabisa: Yes, it does. It does do that. But also, you start – it's like you’ve created a world. Now you start thinking about where do all these characters meet. Yes, I’ve done things where – in almost all my plays I’ll reference one or two plays. I’ll reference my work in other work. I'll cross-reference. And that's because, again, going back to Alice Childress, there's always this thing that – maybe I won't be able to produce all my work, or maybe it won’t have the life that it deserves now, but one day when someone picks up one play, I want them to know that there are other connections. So it's really, it's led to that. It's led to, you know, thinking about this world, this fictional world that I've started to create, but also thinking about the men that would be there. What type of men will I write? I really haven't started writing about them, but I've started thinking about that. I started to think about what sort of plays would I want to see. 

Thembi: You focus on professionalization in your work, inside and outside, based on  what you're telling me about how it becomes a part of the work. What kind of systemic changes are going to be needed for that professionalization to happen, both in South Africa and beyond? 

Nwabisa: When I think about my context in South Africa, it's – we have been the talent, mostly. It's been, you know – “They are great performers and great singers,” right? And then there was a shift from – “Actually, let's not just take their plays and stage them and write them,” you know, “let them write their own stories.” And so then there was a shift in the industry where you saw many Black people also becoming directors, you know, and choreographers, because now they're not on stage, but they're really – they can shape, but they’re still not controlling who brings the money, you know? And I think we actually need more Black producers now, so that you're not -- because now you're constantly depending on that grant, or that institution that's inviting you. And I think that the change that needs to happen is really seeing the entire ecosystem and knowing how to educate people about that entire ecosystem. You know, it's not just being – because our curriculum is mostly around being a performer, that's what we're getting mostly. Right now in South African educational institutions, you're learning how to be a performer and you're learning how to create, but you're not learning where to get the money. How to tour that work. How to even build a career with this thing. It's like you're going to enter a place where all these things exist for you. You know, it's really an educational model that just wants to plant you in a fully functional environment. 

But then you find many young artists – particularly first generation – first generation theatre artists who don't have the social and the cultural capital struggle greatly, whereas those that have social and the cultural cap— in most cases they leave the country. Or they will, because of their network, they already know where to go in order to get the funding. In order to get the right mentor, the right…So I think a huge part of the change needs to happen in how we are educated. 

So, I did a project last year called An Artist is Made. And essentially what I was talking to is that it actually takes community. In the same way that we say takes community to raise a child, it takes community to develop an artist. And it's not only institutions. It's also, you know, the people who don't even understand what this thing is. Because they become part of the audience. So I started mapping, actually, most of the people that have supported me. From high school, even, “I don't know what this is.” My parents, the church, you know? Getting to institutions, established artists like Faniswa Yisa, who were willing, who said “Yes, you can't afford my services, and I'm a well-established actor, and you’re just emerging, but I'll come work with you.” 

So, I'm like – that thing also brought more visibility, because I was already working with big names. So everyone just had a role beyond the institution. So this idea that it will require an entire community – we need to educate each other. We need to support each other, and we actually need an ecosystem, you know? We need to know that where are the resources coming from? How do we sustain them? How do we grow them? Yeah.

Thembi: You talked about mapping all of the artists that you worked with, and then earlier you talked about mapping all of the characters that you wrote. And I'm wondering if this type of reflection has always been a part of your creative process, or have you developed towards that? Have you been mentored to that, or did you just feel like, one day, like, “Wait a second, I need to take stock of all of this.” How did you find your way to that process of reflection? 

Nwabisa: It really was a “one day” situation. Firstly, I said to one of my mentors – we were working on the policy document – theatre and dance policy document for South Africa. And I said, “I wish every artist in South Africa could have the type of career that I've had.” And she said, “That's impossible.” Right? And I agreed with her, and I was like, “Yeah, it's impossible.” You know, I could understand. And then we're like, “Yeah, this is why we need to focus on this policy document. Once the resources and the –“ And then I really got fixated with this policy document. I was like “Yes, once this policy is approved in Parliament, once all the artists, you know – let's just continue advocating for artists to be supported, and to be supported at different levels.” And so we did this, and we finally went to the policy conference and all of these things.

And it goes to politicians, it goes to Parliament, and as I was sitting, I was like, “Nwabisa, but your career was not sustained by this thing. It was sustained by love. Yes, it's important to have this policy document, right? It's important to have support at every level. But then, that was not your reality. You were sustained by love and having a conversation with people.” And so at that time, the National Arts Council had a call out. They had grant funding available. And so I really, in a day, I was like, “Let's write a proposal. I'm actually going to apply for this thing, and we're doing An Artist is Made.” 

And so in explaining why I wanted this thing, I started listing all these people, and I was like, Yes, there's a narrative that artists are unemployed, you know, or struggle to get employment, but that hasn't been my reality. Let's start with Magnet. This is what I – So then I started sharing my journey to – when I didn't get funding, and I walked to Parliament and met person in the Department of Arts and culture, they assisted me in this way. When that didn't work out, and I, so I started listing these people, and it really, it wasn't – Yes, I wanted to get the grant, but essentially, I was trying to convince the person who would also read it that – and also convince myself that it's actually been people, and it's been various people at different levels – some artists, some not artists – and they've all been assisting in this thing. And if we could just have a season where we show and have conversations with these people, showcase this thing, it can become a reality for people. And then yes, I got that funding. So then it was the first level of curating those relationships and those opportunities. And then someone asked me, late last year, was like, “When is Season 2 of An Artist is Made coming back? 

I was like, “What? I thought that was just mapping for me. What, what Season 2? What are you talking about?” But then, now I'm more intentional. But beginning it, it wasn't. It was trying to – “Why did you agree? Why do you think no one can have the career that you've had? Why do you think it's within policy only? Because that hasn't been the case for you,” you know? Yeah. 

Thembi:  That's interesting, because it feels like, sometimes that when the power dynamics are not in our favor, sometimes it does seem like we will agree with something because we feel like, Okay, that person knows what they're talking about. They're an authority. And I love that you went back and reflected and said, “Wait, no, no, that's not – that's not the case.” And it led to this incredible project that now, you realize, is needed. You seem to have this ability to connect to the core of what all artists need in addition to yourself, like, through your own reflection it makes it more universal. And so I want to ask you about the storytelling piece of that. You have definitely the activism and the social justice elements of the work, but the storytelling at its core, as you mentioned before, comes from your ancestry, and your culture, and your heritage. 

But also there's a cultural relevance of the storytelling piece, right? Not just in general, because that's what theatre is, but because as a South African person in this world, in 2024, that's a must. We need to tell these stories. So can you talk about why storytelling is your medium of choice, rather than other ways of getting a message across? Because it's clear that the message needed to get through you somehow.

Nwabisa: I think it's the one that comes naturally. I don't even – I don't even think much about it, you know? It’s -- my way through things is through story. Or sometimes, I say when that my way through things is through theatre, but the outcomes are not always theatrical. But what I mean is like, I make sense of my world through story. If you confuse me and I don't understand what's happening, I need to get in my room and take a pen and start writing, and then I need to place the characters, you know? I was like, Okay, this person that – me, and overall – you know, it really comes naturally. It really comes naturally. And often, what I'm starting to realize now, which I didn't realize when I'm writing, and it’s—I think it has to do with taking a pause and slowing down in the works that I'm doing. We worked on Fragments in in 2019, right? 

Thembi: Yes, yes. 

Nwabisa: And essentially, Fragments was talking about this world where no one could tell stories and would be – it was a shutdown. (Laughs.) So, when COVID happened, I was like, “Oh sh*t, here's a world where we can't tell stories, where it's illegal.” And it's the same with Xhalanga Blues when I was talking about my plays as babies, and then being pregnant, and being a mother and experiencing that thing. So I really have – I'm starting to analyze my work more, because I'm realizing that there are prophetic nuggets there. Whether by chance or by, you know, there's something that I can learn, something that's speaking to the future, that I may not realize when I'm writing it. Because you're writing it, and then you direct it, but I'm realizing that when I go back and go read that work, there are things that I'm going to find, and that's more interesting right now. 

Thembi: Prophetic nuggets. That is brilliant. That's exactly what they are. And how fascinating that you're absolutely right – you wrote a play in 2019 about the inability to tell stories for various reasons, and then here we come in 2020 where there's an inability to tell stories. And we have to kind of work our way through it.

Nwabisa: It's even going back in that in 2017, I wrote a play called ---- where an artist was put on trial via social media. And as the audience came in – and we only had a reading of this play – it was commissioned by one of the institutions in Cape Town – and they invited various people to come in, and as the audience was coming in, they were linked into a WhatsApp group so that they could all be in a WhatsApp group together. And we also projected that conversation, so that if you're not on the phone, you could see the conversation. 

And the thing is the artist is put on trial via social media – the WhatsApp group – and then there's a point where you have to vote with an emoji whether the artist is guilty or not guilty. And you would vote with emojis: Not Guilty or Guilty. And I remember the conversations after the play was like, “This is not theatre.” “This is not theatre.” That *beep-beep* is distracting. And I was discouraged. I was like, Okay, they've paid me. I've written this play, whatever. Directed this reading. We're putting it there. And funny enough, I was in the room with one of the people that are going to Commission it in 2020. And she asked me, like, “Nwabisa, that play…that play that you did!” 

I mean, when she said so, I was like, “Yeah, sure.” but, you know, I think my ego does get in the way at times. It's like, “Okay, now that you guys are ready to do it, I’m not – I don't want to go back.” (Laughs.)

It was the thing that, yeah, okay, I mean, in that moment I was glad that we could go back and see its value. Whereas I think I could still remember that feeling of being in that room where I was being told that this is not theatre. And then 2020, you know, 2 years later, people are now talking about it and they're talking about it in a way where they are excited for it. And it was like, I knew at that point what I was doing. And I still, would love to do the play at some point, but it was an interesting thing to see how producers can sometimes – can sometimes crash something. Only two years later, you know, to say, “Actually, this makes sense to have a play like this.” 

Thembi: Has that led you to see your approach to the work in any different way? Has it changed the way you promote and pitch your work?

Nwabisa: I think it really -- it's affirmed what I found in Alice Childress, again, that maybe people won't appreciate your work now – just do it. And make sure that it's available for future generations. Maybe they don't understand it now, but a time will come for them to want to stage it again. I think it's just – I'm constantly going back to the things that I really love. When I was directing Alice Childress and reading about her, I'm constantly going back to that thing that – maybe you won't be given the platform right now. I mean, I am given a platform, but I mean, at scale. Maybe you won't get the platform at scale, and be able to share your work with many, many people, you know, but at some point, someone’s going to find this work, and it will have meaning and relevance. I think, now I'm not touched when people don't get my work. I'm like, okay, you don't get it, but at some point, you're going to get it. 

Thembi: It stands on its own.

Nwabisa: Yeah.

Thembi: Yeah. Who do you write your plays for?

Nwabisa: That's a hard one…that's a hard one. I think, okay, let me, I think—what I've realized about my work is that I was actually – I was reflecting, Thembi, like, I was really, really trying to make sense of this world that I'm in. 

Thembi: That's what makes you such a great artist—

(Laughter.)

Nwabisa: I was really, really reflecting, that's it. I was just dealing with a whole lot of crazy things, and trying to make sense of them in a way that wasn't offensive to anyone or, you know, in a way that wasn’t traumatizing me either. In a way that could also give room for my family to understand this thing that I wanted to pursue, or I am trying to pursue. And I think now what I'm realizing is that, in the same way that reflection has power, you know, I can also lean on being much more intentional on creating. 

It's still creating – I don't know how to explain this, but, you know, you reflect, you're reflecting on the past, you’re engaging with the past. But if I were to speculate…if I were to look towards the future and was not reflecting, I'm also thinking about how that would look like, in terms of my theatre making. Not sure if I make sense. 

Thembi: It feels like a circle. I guess I just – what I hear is there's like, this circle that's always moving. I don't know if I'm interpreting that correctly, but—

Nwabisa: But it's also this idea that in the same way that we reflect on work, we can also create something new that's not a reflection…that does not have to engage directly with what you are going—you went through, or experienced, or—I think, things have been very close to me and I was like, “What would it look like,” you know, “if I was not reflecting on my experiences?” 

Thembi: Okay, so maybe, so maybe not so much a circle, but kind of a dipping back into the well, but still, like, you – or maybe you're holding something that you continue to reach into for reflection, for sustenance. That's really, really, really interesting and gives me a lot to think about in terms of the way that you – where you find connection both within, without, in time and space. And that – yeah, that's really fascinating. 

Artists – you’ve talked about people you've worked with, and how fortunate you've been to make certain connections socially, culturally, even financially, with a lot of the commissions and support. Who inspires you, though? I mean, I feel like Alice Childress is one of the people who inspire you based on how you've engaged with her work and connected that to yourself. But who are other artists that you really are inspired by, and who helped drive your work?

Nwabisa: So it feels like I must answer it in phases. 

(Laughter.)

Thembi: That works – I like that!

Nwabisa: Just close by, close by, just thinking within South Africa, I'm really inspired by—there's an artist called Jefferson Tshabalala. And what he did is, I mean – he is a theatre director and a writer. But what he did is that he just created merchandise, you know, the Seen Pha merchandise. And it sort of like has become the uniform for South African artists, like, are you even a theatre artist if you don't have something from his merchandise?

Thembi: Of him as an artist, or his work? 

Nwabisa: No, I mean like, he created merchandise, right? That has nothing to do with his theatre work. 

Thembi: Oh!

Nwabisa: It's just his overalls that have the Seen Pa logo, which is like a suitcase and with Seen Pa. Later I’ll send you a picture. (Laughs.)

Thembi: Okay, yes, yes, I will definitely include that.

Nwabisa: --and this merchandise has nothing to do with his theatre making. Right? It has become the uniform. For South African artists, particularly theatre artists and even, you know, actors in television, you just – it's like it's become this thing where we joke about, “Are you even an artist in South Africa if you don't own a Seen Pa item?”

Thembi: Wow…

Nwabisa: …you know?

Thembi: That's so interesting.  

Nwabisa: I feel like everyone everywhere has an item. 

Thembi: Do you?

Nwabisa: I do. I have like, four different types. And it's just interesting how he's moving between – Yes, people are buying clothes, but as you are buying clothes, you also interested to go now go see his play. Like we're buying clothes, but we're just like, we're also interested in – because you're supporting him with those clothes, you also just feel like, I wanna go watch his plays, you know? You feel like you're part of his brand, because we're so invested in this clothes. He inspires me. 

Koleka Putuma is another person who inspires me. She's a poet and theatre maker as well. Yeah, I think she redefined what it means to be a poet in South Africa. She just went very big.

There’s quite a few local artists that – and it's different things, from this person is using something external, like Jeff, through I am seeing Koleka really sustain herself through poetry and theatre. Yeah, I'm just going to list the various people, that's what's going to happen. (Laughs.)

Thembi: Yeah. And I love that because as you list these people, I'm listening to not only the ways they inspire you, but the ways the South African theatre ecosystem is constructed. 

Nwabisa: Another person that really inspires me is Buhle Ngaba. She was mostly known as an actor, but I really loved how she was constantly moving between industries. Theatre, film, you know, her work with – she loves archiving and history and then started writing plays around the things that she was finding in the archive. She has a passion for children, just reading books for children and just being engaged with works that– improving the literacy skills of young children in South Africa, and how she brings that within her practice. I really love how she is navigating various spaces and creating narratives. that speak to her diverse interests. 

And that has led to a shift from people seeing her as an actor to people seeing her as a writer, and also realizing that “Oh, people don't know these types of plays, so I have to go find the money for them,” and then seeing how she's cutting out that producer role in order to make this thing be seen. Yeah, I think I'll stick with those three for now. 

(Laughter.)

Thembi: I love that. So okay, is there somebody who you have a dream to work with to create a new piece? If money were no object and, you know, you could get whoever you want, schedules could work out, who would you work with to create something new together? 

Nwabisa: I mean, it would be you! It would be Thembi. 

Thembi: Really?

Nwabisa: Yes, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why.

Thembi: Okay!

Nwabisa: I can explain (Laughs.)

Thembi: Yeah, because I want to—I'm like, say less. Let's do it, let's go. When do we start? 

Nwabisa: I mean, you were the first person to help me see how – we were talking about – and it was with Fragments – and we're talking about thunderstorms and these beliefs around thunderstorms, and water, and the fear that goes with it. And you know, you would, even as I was writing, you would pick things that you knew that “You know, this would also resonate with us here.” “This actually has this type of meaning for us here.” And you know, within that experience, I mean, I experienced it and then you move on from it, and just like – but it stayed in my mind that you relate. There are symbols that you relate to, that other people also relate to, and have other meanings, and what would it be like to just meet with those people and develop your work…just looking at the symbolism and how we interpret it, particularly of elements and experiences that are similar. 

So I think working with opened me up in terms of – but also, you're also the first mentor that I worked with that actually had the time. I remember speaking to Yvette and saying, “South Africans are dealing with a whole lot.” They’re makers, they’re makers, you know. Usually someone, they’re everything. Usually someone is the writer, is the director, and is the producer, and has five jobs trying to make things work. So much so, that even mentorship programs – it feels like you, you are part of the many other things that they are doing. And it's just the landscape that is causing that. It's not necessarily – and also, maybe because people have not experienced something different. But when I worked with you, I was able to see something different, which was like, this person actually has the time, and the capacity, I don't know how they are—you know.... I don't know how their landscape looks like, but we are really delving in. And also how – the tools that you gave me from – okay, this is – I don't even think you remember, maybe you didn't but you gave me like a template. Where you were just like, This is how I analyze a script, but also this is what I use to develop a script. 

I use that template everywhere. Everyone I mentor, you know, added things as well. So when it comes to, Who is this person that you constantly referencing in your craft? And like I said, when I was talking about the people that I meet, I'm like do you know Thembi, you know? 

Thembi: Wow. 

Nwabisa: Constantly referencing you. Constantly referencing the things that I got from you. But I'm just like, I have not been with this person in person. I have not been in the creative room with them creating something with them. But they are part of my process. They are part of how I speak with my actors, how I mentor young writers. How I unpack my work and develop my work.

Thembi: So yes, okay, so wow. I'm definitely flummoxed but thank you. That was so beautiful and I'm so grateful. And I remember every single thing that you're describing. I remember every part of that process and I remember the tools that you're talking about. And I would I'm just still trying to process what you just said, but I would absolutely love to work with you to create a piece. And you know what's interesting? I'm thinking back to what you said earlier in terms of your joy in being able to really spend time working on a piece, and developing that piece, and I when I talk to other people here about our rehearsal and creative time, You know when I talk to people here about that and I say, you know, why do we, why do we crunch time? I'm always saying we need to make time for the process. And so for you to see that about me, that I believe that time is important and that we, this work, deserves our attention and devotion is such an honor and I'm very grateful. So I want you to know that that that means so – you have no idea what that means to me, because I do believe that we should make the time for this work and a lot of times – and it sounds like you see this as well in in your landscape – people are rushing. They're rushing to create work. They're rushing as if, you know, the time – like “Oh, I've got so many things to do,” and it's like, “No, this process deserves your time, and love, and care. So thank you for that. Yes, it's done. It's done. We're doing it. 

Nwabisa: Another person that I would love, I'd have to raise them up from the – is Ellen Stewart. 

Thembi: Hmm, yeah, tell me about Ellen Stewart.

Nwabisa: I mean, I went to – I mean, I'm wearing a La Mama thingy (Laughs). But I went to La Mama Italy, La Mama Italy. They have the theatre directors and playwrights’ symposium thing. So I went there, and I’m in the space, and they're talking about Ellen Stewart, this woman that “Oh, you know, founded La Mama,” yeah, and now they're talking about it but in Italy, so we’re in the space and we’re looking at these buildings, and in my mind, I'm like, Yeah, certainly, you know, certainly a white woman has all the resources to open things like this, but it's in my mind, right? I’m like, yeah, yeah, of course, you know, white women get the funding and all the money to do those things.

And then they showed us a video, then I was like – oh! (Laughs.) I cried. I kid you not. I cried. I was like, “Oh, my word, it's a Black woman? A Black producer? Why is no one telling us about Black producers? What's happening?” You know…and then I became obsessed with her, just studying her, studying her life, studying, you know, visiting La Mama in New York. Just seeing that space and getting to understand some of the choices that she was taking, you know, what was inspiring her and her journey. 

And so I think, when I think about what she was able to achieve as a producer, I'd love – you know, I'm like, I want to do that. I'd love to sit down with you and as a producer, I'd love to sit down with you and strategize with you. Really, how do we make space for international artists? And funny enough, last year I spent time just meeting South African legends within the theatre sector and just sitting with them, you know, like, having coffee, chatting, all of this. And I met a writer Fatima Teague. And as we were talking, she started talking about the time that she had at La Mama, you know, staying with Ellen Stewart. And of course, I lost my mind. I was like, “Oh, my word, you know her too?” So, it's the same when – now and I message David every time I meet someone who knew Ellen, and it's like I'm meeting people who knew Ellen now. I don't know whether it's because I'm obsessing about her in my mind as well. I'm like, “Oh, this person that I feel did a lot inspires me who I wish I could bring back and like, let's sit down and let's produce something. 

Thembi: She had an incredible impact on so, so many people. So, I've never met her in person, but I too was fascinated by her ability to sit in that producer space, and it really just—listening to you talk about her work lets me know that there are those of us who understand early on that complete control over the  creative process, including production, is essential. 

And when we see representation, it lets us know that it's possible, because, you know, so many of us, right, will go into the performance space because we just – whether it's consciously or unconsciously – feel like, well, that's what we do, and that, you know, we're good at that, and that's where I see so many amazing performers, I mean, go in that direction. And it is interesting to listen to your impressions of her before you saw her and before you knew that she was a Black woman and just what that did for you and how that inspired you. Representation is so, so important. 

Nwabisa: So important, so important. 

Thembi: Now, you talked a little bit about taking some time recently…

Nwabisa: Yes.

Thembi: And I feel like taking that time has also helped you reflect. 

Nwabisa: Mmm-hmm…

Thembi: What is your approach to self-care? How do you include self-care in your creative process, or do you? Is it separate from your creative process, or is it embedded in your creative process? 

Nwabisa: With my last play Ziyana, it was embedded. Because here's a play where I got the money first. (Laughs.)

Thembi: Well, that makes a difference, doesn't it? 

Nwabisa: Commissioned me, I got all the monies that I needed, and I kept getting money. Like, it felt like they were just open vessels, to the point where I remember sitting with the -- like, how would an ideal working environment look like for you? And one of the things that they said was like even having a place to stay, like, if we had accommodation close to our rehearsal venues, you know, then we wouldn't worry about transport. And I got money to pay for the -- period to stay in a place. To have their own house. 

Thembi: Oh, wow! 

Nwabisa: This is just one of those processes where it really wasn't about the play, but I knew that I couldn't rehearse change without a play. I knew that I wanted actors in the room, you know, me being the director and the producer in that space. And I wanted us to talk about, you know, being Black women in the industry, and adapting Fragments because Ziyana is – I've adapted Fragments, you know.

So, yeah, it was – we entered that space, and we were like, how do we create a safe working environment? Even creating a manifesto, and that's something that I know that in every space I go into, to know, to establish. Can we talk about the ethics that we are bringing within the space? About how I want to work. 

As a mother now, I'm just like, “I don't work – I hardly work evenings, Thembi. It's just a very weird thing. I'm like, “I am not coming.” “If it’s an evening, I'm not coming.”

Thembi: It’s not happening. 

Nwabisa: It's not happening. And it's funny because, you know, people started getting used to it to the point where people would tell them – and also don't give me one choice for a matinee that's on Saturday, because I'll tell you, you know, my child is not at school on Saturday. I need a matinee during the week. You need a matinee during the week and on a Saturday. It's like I started forcing my environment to respond to my challenges as a mother. I think when I became – before I was a mother, guys, I am really sorry – I didn't care about these things. I didn't think about them. They didn't cross my mind. And then after I became a mother, I was like, “Oh, my word. I don't wanna work weekends, I actually wanna be with my family.” I don't care if things are sinking. I'm like, “I don't want to work on a Sunday.” “I don't want to work.” 

You start being clear about the thing – your boundaries, and that wasn't there. I didn't have a work/life balance. And also, before I took a break, I realized that my entire life was theatre. (Laughs.) Not surprised. It was like I spent – my entire life was theatre. I think there really was nothing that wasn’t theatre about it. So now to begin separating and try to find interests that are not – like, this is work, this is the things that I'm interested in. This is, these are my hobbies, you know, it's not just one – I work within the theatre and the theatre institution. I am watching plays at night. I am chilling with artists on the weekend. We are rehearsing something, or, you know, to intentionally make space for something else.

I learned how to swim last year. Every Tuesday, I took a hobby and it’s like, let's go learn how to swim. I got Luna in an ice skating club. So then I started learning how to ice skate. (Laughs.)

Thembi: I love that! That’s wonderful.

(Laughter.)

Nwabisa: So, those are things that have nothing to do – those have nothing to do with theatre. But of course, I think I'll probably bring it back at some point. And I've absolutely fallen in love with breathwork. I love breathwork. I love, you know, it's one of those things where I started attending – Sarah Machett, who, I mean, within drama school we do breath work, you know, but to go to an entire session where you're spending two hours just breathing, and we're talking. It just felt like the right therapy and self-care routine for me to build my awareness of breath, to regulate, and to explore with my breathing. So yeah, that's another thing that I have stepped into. 

Thembi: Okay, so are you – the breath work that you're doing – are you studying a particular breathwork practitioner, or is it proprietary, the person that you're working with? I’m just curious.

Nwabisa: So, Sarah Matchett, had just trained with Breathwork Africa, She's a certified Breathwork practitioner and at that point I, when I started breath work, it was one of the things where I'm just like, I don't want –I'm leaving my job, I don't like how I've set up my career. I don't like how I’ve set up my career, because it didn't leave room for me to do other things. I had set up an impossible structure and I didn't know how to shift it. 

And so one of the ways is traditional therapy, you know, where I could sit with someone and talk through my problems. But Sarah’s like, “Listen, here's this thing. You could come to breathing sessions.” And they’re quite similar to yoga sessions, maybe, but essentially I mean when you do yoga you’re also breathing, but now it's you just focusing on breathing. We could also be regulating. We could be doing conscious connected breathing for like, an hour. It's just various things that I could be doing, but you’re really just building an awareness and – you’re breathing, essentially. You're breathing. 

You know how in a therapy session, you go and speak with someone for an hour. You get there, and we just breathe in different ways, you know, through different body parts. Yeah, I don't know if that answers that. (Laughs.) 

Thembi: It does. It absolutely – it absolutely does, because I was very curious about just what the approach was and how you all move through that process because we don't breathe. Obviously, you know, in your in your study of theatre, you learn that we don't breathe properly as humans going through life. And so, to focus on breath and to shut everything else out, I'm sure has a tremendous effect on you, and you mentioned earlier about the things that you're interested in – swimming, and ice skating, and you know, just taking care of Luna, and your family –

Nwabisa: They all just align. They all just align…

Thembi: Yes!

Nwabisa: I mean, essentially, I had a sabbatical year because I also did yoga. I joined an ashram because ashrams, you do yoga for free. Yoga can be expensive. (Laughs.) So then I joined an ashram where it was free for me to go do yoga whenever I wanted to go do it.

Thembi: That's brilliant. 

Nwabisa: So then you had these things where – but also here's the thing, here's the catch, also – so it’s almost like, for the longest time I didn't join swimming classes because, like, this is this is expensive, you know, and I don't have the time. And last year, you know, there were just free swimming lessons that were being provided by the Western Cape. So it's like, okay, let's go do all these free things that are self-care routines, you know? 

I think that the greatest challenge, Thembi, is that –what I did is that I put a break in everything. Well, it's hard to stop doing the mentorship or write thing or, you know, but I left my job, and then and I just focused on myself. And that entailed, like, it's the swimming, it's the walks, it's the breathing, it's the yoga, it's the breathing clubs. And I think I know deep down, or even then, I knew that…I could see it in the gaps where I have a job, where all of that falls through. When I have a job, I go back to the old habits. Where, you know, you forget those routines that you've built around taking care of yourself.  

But with the production Ziyana, like I said, is that by doing, by rehearsing how the change I want to see and having a manifesto for how I want to work with actors, it means whenever I enter a rehearsal room, that will happen. But my work environment, you know, I'm only directing 1-2 plays a year. And I'm still working in the theatre, you know, so I am still – there's still toxic things that I – like I said, I didn't like my working culture. It’s a working culture that I established. No one put this culture on, you know, it's like I established how I work. I established those routines, and I didn't know how to break them without bringing everything to a stop. Without saying, okay, let's pause here. Let's do the – you know, I'm only going to do A-B-C. But I – it's still I still worry, because I feel like when I go back to working fully again, you know, not just directing a play or mentoring. Just being in a theatre institution again, I feel like I might just go back to old habits. Working 24/7, you know? 

This is my second year of— I've even left the city. I'm in rural Eastern Cape, you know, with my daughter, my family and she's in a new school here. And again, even here, I am connecting with artists, but it's like I'm doing it from the comfort of my home. I am not working evenings, I am not working weekends. I'm still straight about those boundaries. But I think self-care is something that has – it goes a lot with habits, and habits…you can develop a strategy for how you're going to take care of yourself, you know, but your habit’s – what's this thing? Culture. It's. What is it? Habit eats strategy for breakfast. Something for that effect. Habit eats strategy for breakfast, and that's how I feel about self-care. it's something that I'm very intentional about. But when I am in working spaces, I find that my habits tend to take over, you know? This thing of working ‘til the very early hours of the morning, and—

Thembi: And that's a big part of theatre culture, right? Is just working hours and hours and hours, and another big part of theatre culture is something that you spoke to earlier in our conversation around parenting, and providing support for parents, and making sure that children are taken care of and included in the process where possible. So it is interesting that you have that level of self-awareness of, you know, I know that when I get in that mode, I may just fall right back into those habits. So it seems to me that that self-awareness is the thing that will protect you because you'll be able to clock it and say, okay, remember I told myself I wouldn't do this, so that's really, impressive. 

So alright, what excites you now moving forward-looking forward, what's next on your path? I love what you're doing now and I'm just going to say there's been a movement, especially I would say in the past, like, 6 to 8 years. But COVID seems to have accelerated it where Black women are saying, “You know what? Putting me first.” There's this global movement of us putting ourselves first and setting boundaries, and making change, and being the architects of our own destiny. 

So I'm curious where you're falling into that movement right now.

Nwabisa: I think what's exciting now is…ooh, I’m editing it.

Thembi: I know, that’s a lot, right? 

(Laughter.)

Nwabisa: I'm editing it. 

Thembi: Oh, you're going to edit it? (Laughs.)

Nwabisa:  Edit, edit, edit, edit, edit. I think when – I realize my creative potential, you know, and I think I have an appreciation for my creative potential. And when I left my job, I remember one of the things that my mentors kept saying to me was, “Nwabisa, you just had a child. Life can be challenging and can be hard.” And I remember, I said, “I don't know how old you guys think I am, but I'm a child. I'm going home.” (Laughs.) “I’m going to my room.” 

(Laughter.)

Thembi: Did you say that? That’s what you said?  

Nwabisa:  Yes, yes. “Guys, I have a mother and a father, I’m going home. I’m a child. I've been very, very responsible. But you know, I'm okay. I'm going to be okay. And it's been interesting to see how, you can, you can really leave institutions, you can really leave formal structures – which I feel, you know, I was privileged enough to be in those spaces – and still be able to sustain. 

It's a very weird thing because, you know, you often feel like you need to be working 150% in order to just get opportunities, but even this conversation now, having this conversation with you…in January I was in New York again. In May, I'm going to Washington, DC, and June I'm planning to be in Italy at La Mama again. It's this idea that – just because you stop, it doesn't mean things will stop finding you. And you can be in a very remote area, very – the remotest, like I am in right now, you know? (Laughs.) 

But it's exciting to know that there’s always abundance, and I know at times it doesn't – because you know, one of the things that makes us stay within toxic cultures and toxic work situations, you know, that we've conformed is this fear that it's not going to work out. If I'm not in a big city like Cape Town, no one knows where Yugi is. Even when I say it to South Africans, I'm from Yugi, you know, They don't know. Now, what about the international community? How are they going to find you?

So, it's really exciting to see what technology has done, that we can actually leave the big cities and go to our rural areas. And I think being here has made me think about the ecosystems much more. It has made me think about, really, the fact that there's no Resource Center here, there's no theatre here. I already know some people that can help me establish some of the things that I want here, you know? And it's really making me think about how really I've been migrating my skills, you know? 

But there's something different about being at home. And being with your community, and I mean the people that have watched you grow. It hits differently. As in Cape Town welcomed me and they supported me fully, but it really, it wasn't home. It was the place where I studied and began working in. Yeah, yeah…it feels different. It feels you have a community, but you also know all the people in these high offices, because they’re like, “Oh, that's my friend's mom.” 

Thembi: So you have both.

Nwabisa: It’s like, you have a community –

Thembi: Yeah…

Nwabisa: It's a very weird – that's exciting though, you know, because it feels like it's fertile ground to start something. Or, you know, because when I think about Eastern Cape, South Africa and I think about rural areas in South Africa, is that we're constantly migrating skills. I mean, we grow up in these places. We have high school here, and then we go for Varsity in a bigger town. And then you also start working there, and you only come home for holidays, for Christmas and Easter. And throughout the year, you forget what life is like here, and when I came back and realized, that, “Oh my word. We don't have anything to do with Luna.” “It's a Saturday, there's no theatre to go to.” You start thinking about those gaps, and you start thinking about change in a really community-centered way, you know what I’m saying? 

Are you going to create a play? It made sense in Cape Town to have half a million rand to do a play, but when you’re thinking about the poverty in this place, and you think about that half a million, you start thinking about how you can have – how you can encourage culture and, you know, encourage people's appreciation of art and understanding of art using less resources, because now you're dealing with other circumstances. That’s exciting for me, because it's just – it's a room full of possibilities. But also, the nature of small towns and rural towns is that things move very slowly. (Laughs.) We’re slow, and really intentional about things. 

Thembi: Do you think that that slow pace means that any initiatives you start to develop will have a long life and will have deep roots? 

Nwabisa: That's a hard one. I think they might have deep roots because of the connections that I already have from the big city, and then you're pulling all of those resources back to your community. But then again, I think, going back to that, to how we started this conversation again, about how my career has been sustained by love. I think more than anything now it's just, it's faith. It's understanding faith and how faith operates within our creative careers, within our endeavors. 

Yeah, because, I mean, there have been people that start things, this idea that, you know, they move to the big city and then they come back, and then it fails. But I want to look at it differently, you know, particularly when it comes to culture. Many people have been studying the Xhosa culture and archiving, but when it comes to our stories, and music, and the visual arts, the paintings, and the crafts, I don't feel that has been studied enough, and I feel like that's something that we can always pull back from, you know? 

And being here has also made me – life in rural areas is also just very heightened, things that happen here are bizarre and interesting and the small-town situations…but you start to think about the importance of storytellers, really, even if it's storytellers within the family, knowing the narratives of your family, knowing your lineage, knowing your people and knowing the journey that your people have taken and what that can do for a family. 

You start thinking about – or I start thinking about theatre in different ways. Not necessarily the spectacle, you know, but really how story can serve us.

Thembi: I—

Nwabisa: It seems like a lot it. It seems like a lot. (Laughs.) 

Thembi: I just – there's so much there. I go back to the “prophetic nuggets” is what you said earlier about just – your deep, very clear connection with who you are, where you come from, what your calling is as a storyteller. But then also that awareness of these different worlds that you inhabit and the way you can navigate these different worlds, but still know what home is. Still know where the base is. I love that…I love that. 

All right. Well, I mean, we could talk for another two, three, four hours, but I guess, I guess I'll bring it to a close. This was such an incredible conversation, and I'm so grateful that you took the time to talk to me today. And I want to – I hope that we'll get a chance to check back in, in another – maybe like, give it a couple more years because I want to see what's next, and what happens, and what you've developed, what you've built, you know, in the next couple years. Is that something you think we'll be able to do? 

Nwabisa: Yes, I think so. But also, we'll also be talking about the collaboration. 

Thembi: Yes! Oh, Yeah…

Nwabisa: (Laughs.) And also tracing where we began versus the work that we've done together, the conversation, then the second conversation. Yes. 

Thembi: Yeah, no, that deserves its own – its own series. I would love that so much. You know, there's so much more to say on that because what you’ve said about a collaboration with us speaks to some things I've been thinking about and working on, on my own. So that that's definitely going to happen. I can't wait. I'm just grateful that you even had that thought it was just fantastic. 

So, alright, so, until next time I'm going to say thank you so much Nwabisa and I wish you all the best with your projects coming up, including with me and we'll see you next time, okay? 

Nwabisa: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you really, really enjoyed being here and having this conversation with you.

KeyBARD is produced, written, and hosted by Thembi Duncan. Theme music by Sycho Sid. Visit us on Instagram @Keybard_IG.