KeyBARD

S1.E7 | Wil Green II: The Power of Passion and Authenticity in Education

• Thembi Duncan • Season 1 • Episode 7

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S1.E7.

For this special episode of KeyBARD, Thembi talks with the multifaceted community advocate, consultant, and educator Wil Green II. With over 28 years of experience in education and youth development, Wil brings a wealth of knowledge and passion to this dynamic conversation. 

Wil talks about the city that made him, Buffalo, NY, and the way he advocates for marginalized groups and amplifies the voices of the unheard.

He is the owner and operator of Tremani Solutions, LLC, an educational consulting company dedicated to building cultural and racial literacy and addressing conflicts within schools.

Want to be a guest on KeyBARD? Send Thembi a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1740803399472257afce75768

KeyBARD is produced, written, and hosted by Thembi Duncan.
Theme music by Sycho Sid.

Listen and Connect:

Thembi: Hello, hello, and welcome to KeyBARD. I am Thembi, and today I'm so excited to be speaking with advocate, consultant, and educator Wil Green II. Yay! 

Wil: Hey, Thembi.

Thembi: Heyy! So, before we get started, I'm going to tell y’all a little bit about Wil Green II, okay? 

He's got more than 28 years of experience in education and youth development as a teacher, program director and developer, mentor, and coach. He's the owner and operator of Tremani Solutions, LLC, an educational consulting company that focuses on building cultural and racial literacy and addressing cultural and racial conflicts in schools. 

Now, recent positions include the Assistant Dean of Community Relations in the Graduate School of Education at University at Buffalo, the Director of the Center for Urban Education, and the Director of School and Community Partnerships at Canisius University, the Regional Office Director at the New York State Network for School Youth Success, and the East Zone Leader with Say Yes Buffalo for their Buffalo Public Schools Community Schools Initiative. 

He's had many recent speaking engagements, including one at the 6th Annual Teaching Black History Conference, including On Common Ground, Exploring Parks and Social Justice through Frederick Law Olmsted and Doctor Martin Luther King. Also on “Buffalo, What's Next?” On WNED, NPR Radio, and “White Rage: The Unspoken Truth of our Nation's Racial Divide.” Welcome, Wil. 

Wil: Thank you, thank you. I sound so important.

Thembi: You are so important. 

(Laughter.)

Wil: Man, that sounds weighty, all those titles and—

Thembi: Very distinguished, right? 

Wil: Right? If only they knew…

Thembi:  Oh! Wait a minute. So, let's jump in. You call yourself a native son of Buffalo, New York. Talk about what Buffalo means to you, and how the culture of that city influences your work in education and community. 

Wil: You know, it's funny you ask this question. I was thinking about this recently, and you know, talking about young people, and I, you know, explaining to the people who I was having this conversation with, like, young people don't know the city that we grew up in. 

So, I shared a story of going to the grocery store with my grandmother, pushing a old school, wheeled shopping cart – her own shopping cart – and we’d fill it with groceries and walk back home. And all the businesses, and the block parties, and the camaraderie. The neighborhood football games. Not league football games, but neighborhood football games where I learned to play with older gentlemen in my neighborhood. I mean, it was just such a time to be alive, such a time to grow up. 

Unfortunately, this is probably, I think, the fondest moments are pre-1990, but late 80s was just awesome. But then you get into the 90s, and I'm pretty sure the same thing was happening in Buffalo as in other urban or Black communities. The influence of the drug epidemic, crack epidemic, and everything else. But I fondly remember just some real cool folk coming from Buffalo, you know, some real cool people that would pull you to the side, pull your coat, give you good information, send you on your way. I know when I went away to school, it was the Buffalo folks that was the livest. (Laughs.) We were brave, you know what I'm saying, we would set the party off. We would have fun, but we also did our work. Just, you know, blue collar city. But we had some real solid individuals, and that's what I try to represent all the time. 

Thembi: And so when, when you're doing your work now, how do you represent that? How does that find its way into your work? Does it find its way directly, or indirectly? Underneath? All of the above? 

Wil: Yeah, I mean, all of the above. I mentioned to you I'm the Big 50 now, right? I'm 50 years old now. And you know, I think we kind of go through this process of developing our professional selves, and when I first came into work, my professional work, right out of college, it was like, okay, well how do I fit in, right? I've always been an educator. We know nationally less than 2% of teachers are Black males, so I was always, like, one of very few. And the first part of my career I tried to fit in. I tried to figure out ways that I could fit into these spaces, but now that I'm come into fully understanding who I am, understanding the dynamics, understanding what I fully bring to the table, being my true authentic Black joyful self – now they just kind of get what they get. And, you know, in the interview process, I'm not bashful about sharing my experiences and who I am, and how I got the way that I am. And I feel like, well, you knew who I was when you hired me. So you're going to get the full extent of that. And surprisingly, it's actually, I think, blazing pathways for other individuals like myself, and I continue to push the envelope and I think that's exactly what I'm supposed to do in these positions.

Thembi: Living your truth, being your true self, I love that. You've worked for many years in education, and youth development, and advocacy for underserved communities. What fuels your passion for this work? 

Wil: The same thing, you know. So not only did I see a flourishing Black Buffalo. I also saw the elements of the destruction of the Black community. And, you know, I felt that intensely because I lost a number of friends, a number of family members, you know, to all the things that have come with this war that's been enacted on our communities. So I feel like I owe it to them to represent for them and to show folks like, hey, listen. You might think that I'm different, but I'm actually – Number One, standing on the shoulders of these giants before me, but I'm also carrying all the individual pieces of those unknown folks who poured into me along the way. And that's my peers, that's elders, that's family members, I mean, I feel like it's my mission and my duty to represent the best of what my community has to offer. 

Thembi: You work in spaces, and you bring cultural competency to those spaces. What is cultural competency and how do you use it in the work that you do with educators and school administrators? 

Wil: Oh, so, you know, this is interesting, right? Because we talk about cultural competency and often what I tell people is like, well, we had to give this thing that is essentially humanity, right? How are we valuing the humanity in others, right? To me, that's cultural competency. But we had to package it in a framework, which is interesting in itself, but cultural competency is seeing the value of everyone else's humanity. They are an individual. They have something within them that is beautiful. They have things about them on the outside that are beautiful. And we don't even necessarily have to agree that it's beautiful. But we do have to agree that it exists, and we should make space for people to shine. So we package it as cultural competency, but in essence what it really is, is seeing each other as a part of this human group, this human culture, this human race, and making space for individuals and not trying to stop their shine, not getting in the way of that. 

Cultural competency is saying it's not all about you. There are other ways to see things on the planet, and/or universe, or megaverse, and your way is not the only way. Make space for other people and their values. You don't have to agree, but you should respect it. I mean, I think in essence, that's a quick definition of cultural competency. 

Thembi: You talk about packaging cultural competency. Why do you feel that cultural competency had to be packaged in the first place? 

Wil: You know, with so many things, I think we've been through a time, right? I mean, so often, you know, you hear folks, “Man, well, you know, if I was living during that time, I'd have done this.” Well, guess what? Here you go. It's right here in your face. So instead of you telling us what you would have done during that time, all we have to do is look at what you're doing now. We’ve got Trayvon Martin, George Floyd, 514, racist shooting massacre in Buffalo, New York, right? Which hit home. I went to school in Cold Spring, still got friends in Cold Spring, deeply impacted by that. 

So, you know, why do we need to package it? Because clearly, it's folks out here who do not value the humanity in others. And we need a way to transfer this information over to them. It is astonishing how at some points it's so simplistic, but when you see what we're up against, it's just so complex. And in order to make it attainable, we do have to figure out a way to teach others about humanity, which I think is a connection to who we are as Africans in the first place. Can't tell me Africans wasn't the first teachers, because we still teaching today. 

Thembi: That leads me to trauma-informed care. 

Wil: Oof…

Thembi: How do you use that in your work with communities? 

Wil: You know, here's the interesting thing, I think I – I said Africans world's first teachers. And you know, my first professional role was as a teacher. And there were some things certainly, that I had to learn along the way, but there were some things that I just innately knew about transferring information into young people, or groups of young people. There's just things I innately knew how to connect, right? Like, it was almost in my DNA. So for me, when I learned about trauma-informed care, it was almost like an “Aha” moment, because it was something that spoke specifically to my own experience, and some of the things that I had to learn by myself to conquer some of the trauma that I had encountered as a young person. 

So now, it's almost like me being able to share that experience with others, Number One, so they know how to come into situations and acknowledge the trauma they've experienced themselves. Number Two is not placing blame on behaviors for individuals that you're trying to work with. It's a sense of understanding that, yo, this person has dealt with something traumatic recently or historically, in their family network...so when you come in with that type of information, then you know that you’ve got to ease into these things and it's not someone intentionally being mean or intentionally being withdrawn. It's because of what they are experiencing or what they've experienced. And that's the first step to that connection, recognizing that I'm not going to take this personal. This is something that this person has had to deal with, and this is the manifestation of it right here. 

Thembi: You've said once in an interview, “There’s schooling and then there's education.” What did you mean by that? 

Wil: Ooh, ooh, ooh. Well, I mean schooling – you go to school for schooling. And in the classroom, I would say I was always a bit nontraditional. The row seating. The “Sage on the Stage.” Complete lecture style. Here's the assignment, copy it down. Do this. Test comes, same information. To me, that's schooling. Like, that is wash, rinse, repeat. Wash, rinse, repeat. To me, education is inspiring because it impacts not just the skill base that you acquire in a school setting, but it also impacts how you take that information within the school setting and apply it to different areas in your life. Apply it to how you see the world. 
 
Schooling can prepare you for a job. It can teach you skills. Education prepares you for your life and beyond. Because, you know, there may be another thing behind this veil of flesh and what we can feel and touch in front of us. So if the mind is right here, as we transition through these other phases of being, we got that oneness. We got that connectivity through education and critical thinking. 

Thembi: So we're – okay, so schooling we receive in institutions is what you're saying. And education is something that you develop over the course of your life. Is that something that you can intrinsically be motivated to go after? Is this something that just happens to you culturally? If I want to be educated, if I want to make those connections that you're talking about, how do I go about doing that?  

Wil: Yeah, I think what's interesting is, most young people have a thirst for education. I think when children come out the womb, they instantaneously want to learn and pick up more and more information. And what happens is it's the structural schooling that disrupts that love of learning, right? And I've literally seen this happen. I feel like we are ready-made to be educated, and when I come across individuals, and now I'm no longer in the classroom teaching young people through the work that I do with my business, Tremani Solutions, I'm working with administrators and teachers and school districts. I'm still tapping into that long history of wonder for education and wanting to know things that go beyond just this skill base, is something that is transformative. I think we all still have that desire to experience that type of education. But unfortunately, the way things are set up now is few and far between you get the opportunity to wrestle with information in that type of way. 

Thembi: Why did you shift from being in the classroom towards working with administrators and educators? Do you do you not prefer being in the classroom anymore, or did you feel like it was a natural progression? 

Wil: Yeah. So maybe a bit of a natural progression, but I think early on, what I identified is because I think I went through the traditional thing. I was a classroom teacher, I was put into positions of leadership within the school to develop programming to support students, and then I was like kind of earmarked for administration. But because I had some really valuable mentors who I would say were real teachers, and more concerned with education and less concerned with schooling, and I certainly, you know, picked up on that, I knew like, I don't think it would work with me in a role in a school as an administrator because administrators were now becoming kind of like CEOs as opposed to principal teachers, you know? 

So that led me down a really winding trajectory and path that I stayed in the classroom a little bit longer. I was able to get experiences in adult education, teaching – I've taught people literally from like 8 years old to 80. And it all has informed me on how to do better what I do now when I work with administrators and school leaders. So in a way it wasn't natural progression, but I wanted to impact schools in a way that I knew I would not be able to do, being placed in one school as a principal. So it makes sense that now I'm able to do what I can do, and you know, people in schools can benefit from my experience and the diversity of my experience as well. 

So I'd like to think it's a natural progression, but I think it was some other powers at work that got me to this point where I am now. But at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, I would love to go back to the classroom or some form of classroom setting, and to work with young people, because they're so smart. They're just so smart, you know?

Thembi: Okay, so you spent 30 years in education, and you talk about the powers that shifted you towards the destiny of working with administrators and educators and increasing your impact and expanding the diversity of folks who gain the benefit of your understandings. What core principles of teaching have endured with you over that 30 years? What did you bring with you that came from teaching? 

Wil: So the first one is love. So I don't know, maybe some folks would debate it, but I think love manifests itself differently, because a lot of times when we think of love, we think of  romantic love and the showering of people with affection. What I learned about teaching is that you truly have to love the individual that you're teaching. And that doesn't mean like this babying or coddling, or this sympathetic connection. It is this desire to see them grow and develop into their best self, the best and greatest version of themselves. And you’ve got to love somebody to work with them through that process, because a lot of times people don't even know there's a best version of themselves that even exists. In order for you to see that in someone that is demonstrating none of that, you have to love them. Not only do you have to love them, you have to love that process, and you have to love the transformative power of education.

To see that process is a beautiful thing to behold. I would imagine it's probably the next best thing to what a mother feels like when she puts new life into the planet. Because it's something that – it's not a guarantee it happens. But when you see that connection in someone who formally believed that they couldn't and then they could, and now they know that they can. There is nothing else better than to see that, and to know that that journey in which you've participated in, can have a tremendous impact on the outcome and future of the world. It's like, no matter what else I've done on this planet, good or bad, I know that there is one thing that I've been blessed to be able to do, and I've put participated in it fully, with no other purpose but then to see that growth. So it's all love. It's all love. 

Thembi: That's beautiful. I like that. I like how you, you made that connection with love and taking it beyond sort of what we typically think love is, and just a love for people, and a love for that craft, and watching people discover what they're able to do. That's beautiful. 

So, okay, we talked about individuals. Now I want to expand back out to systems. You use a lot of systems thinking in your work. I want you to talk about how examining systems impacts the conversation about inequality in our society. 

Wil: Oof. Okay, that's a doozy. 

Thembi: Yeah, you know, just light work for the day. 

Wil: Well, so now, now this is where you marry, I guess, the spirituality of what I just described, and love, and the process of teaching and learning. You marry it with a science. Right? And I mean, I think that is the gift that I've been given by the universe, higher power, God, whatever you want to call it, is the ability to see, on one hand, the beauty of it in terms of how it enhances the spirit, but also to acknowledge that there are plateaus, there are steps, there are processes that must be measured and fine-tuned to implement the strategy for folks to reengage themselves with education in a way like they hadn't been reengaged before, and to continue to push forward to get the outcomes.

I think the systems piece – some people understand, oh, we need a system and a step A-B-C-D, and then there are some folks who are like, oh I just want to kind of free-flow. But even within the free-flowing there's a system. My goal is always to help people identify the system in which they are working in, whether it's a free-flowing system or it's a strict system, and figure out how to take that system and retrofit it best for the community you're working in. So it's not just a system that works for one individual, it's a system that works for all individuals. 

And that's the nature of equity, right? The nature of equity is, okay, well, we need a system. Okay, is that system just working for you, and a small group of people? Yeah. That's a problem. How do we adapt and adjust and incorporate other elements into the system to satisfactorily support all of the folks who come through this process, and make sure that we are not stripping them of anything that they bring into the process that is beneficial, or could be beneficial to us all? 

Thembi: In your experience, what role do community partnerships and collaboration play in addressing systemic challenges in education?

Wil: I mean, if we're going to be serious about true change, right, then we have to have partnerships. Because for so long in this country, and even continued, it's always been about one particular group, or, you know, when that group feels threatened, they allow a few other folks in. They assimilate, they take on the characteristics of the lead group and then they, you know, disengage or disenfranchise the group that's left over. So if we're going to be true about creating spaces or creating systems for all individuals to thrive, then we can't necessarily have one group that's left out of it. 

Now I would say that I would say in a lot of spaces there are individuals and groups who say, well, we can't continue to allow others to come in and sabotage the work that we’re doing. I kind of look at it like this. I would imagine during slavery, enslaved people – there were those who wanted to be free, and there were those who wanted to just switch roles and be the slave master. I have no interest in being a slave master. I have no interest in enslaving others. My interest, because I consider myself a true educator, my interest is in creating a pathway that all individuals can participate in a free society that benefits all of them. And like Malcolm, after hajj, I'm willing to work with anybody who is concerned with helping and supporting my brothers and sisters here in America and abroad.

So, I think, if we’re trying to win a war, I'm not looking for enemies, I'm looking for allies. I'm looking for comrades. So I’ve got to do my due diligence to make sure that there's a vetting process, but absolutely it's all of us or it's none of us. 

Thembi: So then, let's say you remove the obstacles to equity in education, and now education is equitable for all. And you've said that that's your goal, that's what you work towards. What does that system look like? 

Wil: Hmm…so here's the interesting thing. What I tell you is it looks like something we've never seen before, nor is it something that we could fathom. Because now every individual can reach their true potential. And now it is not a system, because when we talk about equity, we're not just talking about human equity. We’re talking about sentient being equity. We’re talking about the planet being a part of our community, which means if it's equitable for human beings, then it must be equitable for the planet. And everything that we do must be in concert with building up and restoring the health of the planet we live on. Right? 

Therefore the future, if it's equitable, then that means all these things are operating in harmony. Right? So what does travel look like on a planet that is an equitable travel for every sentient being on this joint. (Laughs.) I don't know. But it starts with creating that space for people to believe and think and know it could happen, and the only way that happens is to not have fear. Not have fear of being othered. Right? Not have fear of starving. Not have fear of having warmth. Then we really get to see what we could do. We might be moving objects with our minds, I don't know. But if we take all the shackles off of everything, then we really get to dream. Then we really get to do. 

Thembi: That's fascinating. You are including – you're including the earth and all of our environment in the conversation about equity, which I haven't heard done before. So I'm really interested in that conversation and I want to make sure that as we continue this discussion, that's contextualized inside of that, because you make a really good point. What's the point of us even achieving equity on a social level, if the planet is uninhabitable? 

Wil: Exactly. And we're countering our purpose if we are not taking that view of equity. Like, how can we just make equity for people who look like us? Even if we get over the whole color thing, now we're going to say, well, okay, it's only equitable for human beings. It's not equitable for the dogs. It's not equitable for the cats. It's not equitable for the flora and the fauna. This is just the baby steps to get to a future that is truly equitable.

I think too often we are compartmentalizing equity. We're compartmentalizing what it means to be culturally responsive. And when it gets difficult, we end up going back to where we started. That's how the system always resets itself. Fear. And difficult. Right? We just go back to what we used to. Nah, what if we continue to push forward? We don't know what that looks like, but if we're talking about the goal being equity, that has to be inclusive of everything that we come in contact, or we are in danger of falling back into where we came from. 

Thembi: How do you navigate resistance? You have very expansive ideas of equity, and I'm sure that you include these ideas in the application of your work. So when you receive resistance, like according to what you're just saying, we tend to go back to old habits and old paradigms, and old ways of thinking. How do you navigate that resistance and how do you overcome that to bring about change?

Wil: Okay, so I'm going to tell you straight up. Harriet Tubman is on my Mount Rushmore of heroes, period. And I ask people this because when they say, well, what happens when somebody– you think Harriet didn't have haters? What did Harriet Tubman do? She just kept doing the work. She just kept doing the work. And if she encountered you and you wanted to be free, you were able to be free. If she encountered you, and you were with her, and you wanted to be free, but you got a little nervous, she kept pushing forward and pushed you right along with her.

I think I'm at the stage of my life – and I can only speak from my experience – I'm at the stage of my life where I've gone through the childhood experience and, excuse me, the teenage and preteen experience of not being sure of myself, not knowing if, oh, well, what if I'm not handsome enough? What if I'm not smart enough? What if nobody will listen? This has been my thing all year. I am 50 years old, and I am confident in the things that I do well. And I'm going to push this thing forward like there is no tomorrow until I'm proven wrong. (Laughs.) 

So let the naysayers, naysay, but those who have the energy, the gumption, and the desire to move forward, we're going to move forward together – until we can't move forward no more. I don't spend a lot of time – I'm not going to get into debates about right and wrong. You have your own opinion, why are you wasting time trying to convince me? I'm not going to try and waste my time to convince you. But those who want to move forward in this direction, let's get busy and do work. That's it. Let's get busy and do work. That’s why I like you so much, Thembi. (Laughs.)

Thembi: Oh thanks, Wil!

Wil: You get busy and do work. 

Thembi: I do, I do… 

Wil: Is it “TIM-bee” or “THIM-bee”?

Thembi: Ooh, I'm so glad you said that. It's both. 

Wil: I'm mad that you're just now telling me this. 

Thembi: Oh, sorry. Well, you know what? It's an ongoing development. So, my name is pronounced “TIM-bee.” 

Wil: Mmm-hmm…

Thembi: However, when I was about 11 and I learned this, I went to my dad, who selected my name and said, Dad, everybody's been calling me “THIM-bee” my whole life, I think that I'm supposed to be called “TIM-bee.” I've learned that that is the proper pronunciation of my name. And my dad said, Well, I don't know what you're talking about, your name is “THIM-bee.” And I said, okay, we're done here. So that was a wrap. 

So, so out of respect for my dad, when I introduce myself, I say “THIM-bee”, but I respond to “TIM-bee” and sometimes I even introduce myself as “TIM-bee”. So you'll hear both, and I, and it's funny because people will ask me because as you know, the pronunciation of your name is very important, and so you never want to be wrong when you're naming someone or, you know, calling them their name. And so people will ask me like, wait a minute, I've heard it two ways. What's the right way? The answer is they're both right. So you're good.

Wil: And for you, that makes perfect sense…

Thembi: Doesn’t it? Doesn’t it fit me perfectly?

Wil: Of course you have two correct ways to pronounce your name. Of course you do. (Laughs.)

Thembi: It fits me. And that's where I think most people don't give me any pushback when I explain that. They're like, oh…okay…yup…

Wil: Yep, makes sense. Love it. Alright.

Thembi: I'm glad you asked that, because I was thinking about that—

Wil: So now I can be interchangeable with it. That’s even more fun. 

Thembi: Right. Isn't that great? Interchangeable. And I am, I'm having fun being interchangeable with it. And I think, you know, in all seriousness, that speaks to exactly what you were just talking about. Is this idea of not getting fixed and set in an idea to the point where you can't even move forward because you're so stuck in, this is the way it's done, there's no other way. I can't imagine any other way to do it. And that's just a tiny example of how I explore flexibility and slight ambiguity in my own life, and how that leads to change. 

Wil: Mmm-hmm. Love it, love it. It makes perfect sense. 

Thembi: Thanks for asking. So I want to shift over to something that happened recently that affected everybody on the planet COVID-19. 

Wil: Yeah…

Thembi: There was a period where, for a lot of systems for two whole years, folks weren't receiving the “traditional education.” I want to know what you see as the biggest impact that that had on our education systems.

Wil: Well, so you know, I am one of those people that think that COVID-19, and the response, because you always have the thing, and then there's the response to the thing. And we know that sometimes the response to the thing is so much more detrimental than the original thing that happened. So speaking to that point, I don't think we handled it very well with our school systems in the United States. And the reason why, though, is because what it did was exacerbate something very specific. And from my experience, what we've lost is the connectivity between the school building and our communities. 

So when we decided to shift to virtual learning, and remember, these are the poorest, less resourced school districts that had to shift, right? When we decided to shift, what I thought could have happened did not happen, and we basically attempted to carve out a piece of the classroom, lift it up out of the school, and drop it into the living rooms of our families, with no acknowledgement of the familial structures that existed. No acknowledgement of how even the timing was off. Because now, now parents no longer could rely on – my child is gone for this amount of time, reasonably safe, reasonably fed. I get them back here. I can do these things and those things. 

So we didn't take into account the familial structure, nor did we bother to coordinate – and I'm talking about en mass, I know there are some schools that did really well with this – we just didn't coordinate with parents and families to say, hey, what type of instruction or education would work best for you and your family structure, and how you live with your children? It was literally, oh we’re just going to change school to your living room, and show up at this time, stay for this amount of time, and then the school day is done. 

So, what you have is a scattershot response in terms of families, in terms of students showing up. Attendance dwindled horribly. We haven't recovered in terms of attendance for students, not just locally, but nationally. Nationally, there is a crisis for student attendance in schools. I think part of that is, we don't know what happened to students while they were gone from under the watchful eye of mandated reporters in schools. We don't know what they experienced. We don't know what the trauma was like. We don't know a lot of things about the experiences that students had while away from schools. 

The largest thing is this: young people need safety, and for young people, safety equals consistency. For us, we can never imagine a time where we didn't have school as an option. Whether we went or not is another story. But we knew school was an option. We could go day in and day out. “I'm not going to school today,” but you could go if you chose to. We can't fathom what it's like to have a pillar of society like schools being removed. Not only are we removing the option for you to go to school, we're also telling you you must stay in your home. You can't go see Grandma and Granddad because they might get sick and die. You can't go outside, you can't – all these things to the minds of young people. We know about Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs and the development of young people. We ripped out a structure. And I'm going to tell you. The type of student, young man that I was, that thought deeply about the world, if they would have removed school and allowed me to move to the next grade, the very next thought I would have had is well, “Why should I ever go back? Why does it make any sense that if at any point in time, you can make the decision that I don't have to go, you can allow me to move to the next grade, why do I ever have to come back, then?” It's like you revealed that the Wizard of Oz is just a man. 

The system does not have the power in the eyes of the children anymore. For the children it’s like “Man, what's real is what I do every day.” This society, y’all remove school one day and you gave me the grades to pass. Why should I believe in the system? And I think that is all those things that contributed to what we are now seeing in terms of students and their return to school or they're not returning to school, performance of students. This is going to be a long time before— I don't think we go back to normal. And let's be honest, normal wasn't working out so great for us anyway. 

Thembi: Am I to conclude from what you said that you do not support distance learning? 

Wil: So, I support distance learning, but I support it the same way with any type of learning. You need experts. It needs to be done with fidelity. I mean, it's not just something you figure out in a week, and you just, you know, you try to take, you put everything on a screen and say here you go.

Here's the thing. One of my issues, when I was in the classroom, and this is before technology has gotten to the point it is now. But cell phones were around, YouTube and all this other stuff, and I'm like, you know, Internet was around and I'm like, you know, why are we bringing students in the school and stripping them of their technology, refusing to use it in a way in which they interface with it every day of their lives. So what you're basically telling me is that when kids come to school, we are telling them to interact with the world in a way that they don't interact anywhere else. But outside of it, you can use the technology computer play the games…Why didn't we take advantage of the technology and use that to interface with students in a way that was academically effective? Sesame Street was created because we're like, oh, we got television. Well, you know what? We need to educate kids through the use of this technology that's exploding. What happened? Why did we then abandon that idea that oh well, technology is doing this, but that's just for fun. and school is for – not fun? (Laughs.)

Thembi: That – that  is an incredible perspective. I really, really am intrigued by your point of bringing up Sesame Street and distance learning through television and you make such an important point, because early distance learning was that – radio, television, things like that. And so how is it that we're bringing students into classrooms and telling them to push the technology away, when as soon as they step out of the building, technology is so present in their lives. And I wonder if a part of it isn't that, like, what you said in the beginning of your last answer, which was we need experts. And that it was unfair with – I have no argument with the fact that it was unfair to put teachers in a position where, five minutes after this horrible thing that's happening that's affecting them as well, okay, now you have to be a distance educator, and they – some of them may have known, but most of them didn't, because that's not what they were doing. And there really wasn't any preparation for that. So it's interesting that you even indicate that even before COVID-19 happened, we could have been leveraging technology to our advantage, and we weren't. 

Wil: Yup…

Thembi: So it sounds like a lot of missed opportunities have been happening in education. 

Wil: Well, and it kind of goes back to that rigidity of schooling, not education. So if the focus was education, then the technology would have been an absolute part of it. And I think you answered the question, the question you asked was, does – or am I a proponent of distance learning, does distance learning work? Well, you’ve got people making TikToks across the world, teaching people in another part of the world. So I think absolutely distance learning works, but how are we trying to implement it? 

Thembi: Yeah, within a system, right? Going back to the systems conversation, how do you implement something like that in a system, and not, and not under duress when there is a worldwide health crisis, that's certainly not the way to do it, so…

Wil: No, no. Pivoting under stress, you're going to yield stressful results. But pivoting when you've already created the opportunities to engage in these ways? It's just a transition, right? I don't think there was – I guess that was my biggest thing. I was like, you know, when these kids come back, we need to have a symbolic end to the year in which they originally left. So it's a natural transition, as opposed to. “Forget about it.” You know, hey, we're right back – adults, we could do that easily. You know, we're very learned at just moving on to the next thing. Young people need closure. I don't think we've ever provided closure for what COVID-19 and the response to it disrupted for young people. 

Thembi: So, so much happened during that time. You mentioned some of the violence that happened in terms of George Floyd and the national and international uprisings that happened as a result of that, as well as what happened in Buffalo. Do you want to talk a little bit about how that impacted education on the local level? Because you talked about trauma, being trauma-informed in the work, and how trauma comes in different forms. It comes in an instant thing that happens, some sort of traumatic event that happened. But also there's historical trauma, there's generational trauma – can you talk about how that thing, that traumatic event that happened in Buffalo played out in terms of education locally?

Wil: Now here is where I miss being in the school working with young people. Because at this point, I get feedback when I do, you know, presentations and workshops with teachers. I ask about how our students presenting, I talked to folks who are still in the classroom, but  that’s secondhand information for me. With the work I do now, I don't have the opportunity to engage young people in large quantities, like a classroom teacher where there’s hundreds of kids a year. My experiences now with young people are extremely limited. 

So I can't really speak to specifically how it's impacting or what it looks like now, but what I will say is that it did create a hyper-awareness in the community. And to a certain extent, the response to it was something of, okay, how do we package this response? How do we package the response to address a certain component of the issues that created this situation? And there's been a number of people, individuals, organizations that have responded in ways that I never thought would be possible in my lifetime. Where they fully acknowledged that this was about racism and white supremacy. It was about the hatred of Black people. And these individuals and these organizations have doubled down on their efforts to support being anything but that. 

Anti-white supremacy, anti-racist. Putting their money behind it, supporting individuals, finding folks, and helping them, like, I'm relieved to have seen that and witnessed that. Because growing up in Buffalo, New York, and seeing the things that I've seen, of course there was a shadow of doubt in my mind that people even would respond like that. But I will say that due to 400 years of white supremacy and oppression on a national level, on a local and regional level, the same way, I said we find it difficult to imagine a free and equitable future, I think some of the notions that people have about what we can do to address that situation is limited. 

And it’s my goal to continue to push, continue to advocate, continue to get the voice of those who've been impacted, who no longer have the energy to try to communicate with others who said they were going to help. I get it. They're tired. They're tired. But I'm going to do my best to make sure that their voices are heard, to convince them to continue to push on. But we've got a long way to go. We got a long way to go. And there's some higher truths that are going to have to be faced before we even start to get on that pathway of reconciliation and healing, to get to all those beautiful things I mentioned earlier in my view of equity.

Thembi: We've been focusing on elementary and secondary education in terms of equity. You work in higher education quite a bit, and I'm curious how you see higher education institutions fitting into the conversation about equity. Do they need the same assets and actions to reach equity, or is it different for them? 

Wil: Yeah, so being an educator I primarily, on a higher education level, I always work in the liberal arts portion of college campuses, which is where you find, what do they say, the left-leaning thought, you know. But what is interesting is, because of the compartmentalization or siloed effect of higher education, you see these individual professors whose life’s work is committed to equity and action. You see that they’re also kind of – I don't want to say stifled because they do great work, but it has a limit. 

Now, the one thing I will say about the work that I'm doing at UB now, is that there is a dedication to blurring the line between higher at work and community work, and higher ed expertise, and community expertise. So no longer are we looking at coming into communities and extracting and saying we're going to, we want to do it this way. We need to develop relationships before we even come to the community with proposals, grant opportunities, whatever, to give them what they need based on what we can offer, to support their efforts, and then, through that collaboration, we identify opportunities together. 

Now. That is, even in liberal art colleges, that is a far cry from historically how universities and colleges have worked with communities. So there's a ton of work to do, but I'll tell you this: I see faces and those faces who do the committed work in communities, no matter where they go, I've not seen as many people in positions to do it as I ever seen before. Does that mean it's enough and it shouldn't be more? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But I'm seeing progress. But once again, my job is to not look at the progress and be like, oh yeah, you know, good job, we're done. No. My job is to look at the progress and say, now look at the great work they're doing. We need more. We need more. We need more. Until I'm done walking out the door, and even walking out the door, we need more. We need more. We keep pushing. We keep pushing, We keep pushing. 

Because Harriet Tubman, once again, Harriet Tubman didn't stop until she couldn't do it no more. Right? And she knew there was still work to do. So, same thing for me and I hope, others who think like me, in a college setting. We can't be comfortable with what we see now, because it's still difficult for me to go to a predominantly white institution and be fully who I am with my kinky ‘fro, and my hip-hop hooded sweaters, and they look at me differently. But you know, I walk with my chest out. When the opportunity comes for me to demonstrate my expertise, I demonstrate it. And when the opportunity comes for me to bring someone from the community who can demonstrate expertise, we demonstrate it. 

But there's plenty of work to do. I'm appreciative of the incremental steps that have taken place to get us where we are, but no time to rest. (Laughs.)

Thembi: Okay, you talked about your work in higher education, and how folks who are employed by institutions can reach toward equity. Now you and I both know that throughout history, youth and students, particularly college students, have been big parts of national and international movements towards justice and toward equity. How do you see in, you know, 2024 and beyond, young people and students fitting into that picture of achieving equity? 

Wil: So, I think we're actually witnessing this type of change, because I would say young people in the workplace are less willing to dedicate their entire lives to their professional self. They are more – man, young people will leave a position in a minute if it is not satisfying a part of who they are that exists outside of the professional self. So I think we're seeing and witnessing that, and now with the advent of the Internet and the opportunity to say, I could just do this myself. They're creating income and generating wealth through the Internet. 

Now, I think there's still some things that exist that tap into historical inequities to a certain extent there, but I think we see the beginnings of an opportunity for young people to carve out their own path that is so different from what people from our generation had learned about schooling, and a job, and work. So, what I'd like to see is us to get behind young people and encourage them to push harder and go further. We need some policy change. I think we need some systemic change because it's very difficult to be an entrepreneur and you can't afford healthcare, you know? That is the thing that's tying some folks back. And then we wonder why young people are not having babies, is because they’re trying to chase the future and they know, I can't afford to take care of the healthcare of a child, much less myself. 

So I think this kind of goes back to that conversation about an equitable society. Like, we’ve got a lot of obstacles in the way that if you're not paying attention, you don't see how they are hindrances to that equitable society. But it's a hindrance to the creativity and freedom of thought that young people naturally have. We know they want it, but what usually happens? They get to their 30s, they got a couple kids, and like, man, I need some money to pay these bills. And then the cycle begins anew. 

I think young people are like, listen, I'm not sacrificing the rest of my life for this, and we better heed that, or what's going to be left of us to move forward, you know? At least these are all my thoughts and opinions. The ideas that I share are not the thoughts and opinions of any place that I work for, except for Tremani Solutions. 

(Laughter.)

Thembi: Make sure we get that out there, right?  

Wil: Absolutely…you know…

Thembi: That's, wow. Wil, that's so great. I'm just so glad I had the chance to have a conversation with you today. Now I want you to tell us what initiatives are you working on, or what do you have coming up that you're really excited about? 

Wil: Man, you know, I'm at an interesting point in my life, so professionally, in terms of the work that I'm doing at UB, we've got this large-scale tutoring project that could really be impactful for students in Buffalo Public Schools, and some of the Erie 1 BOCES schools. It's in-person, push-in, in combination with some experts in the field from UB, partnering with some of the schools in the districts that we work with, Virtual tutoring supports, kind of like a homework helpline that students can log into, either schedule or just drop-in hours. And then the final component is we're putting together in-person on campus tutoring opportunities for students. And that's where it'll be more like covering subject level supports or content area supports. So on the professional side, that's something that I'm really looking forward to. 

We're also doing a lot of work with the Netter Center at Penn in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and the work that they do with Community Schools, so I’m really excited about that. I think that can tap into certain areas of expertise. We can be creative and how we bring supports into the community, and how we empower the community to come and take advantage of some of the resources on campus and there's a willingness on campus to do that. So I'm really excited about this shift in the ideology and the change, and I hope we can keep them momentum moving forward. 

As for me personally, the work I'm doing with Tremonti solutions, I'm really, I mean I I've learned so much in the work that I'm doing with the districts around Western New York and just the different, varied, and diverse educational environments. Working with indigenous populations, working with students who we wouldn't consider to be diverse demographics, just seeing everything that exists outside of the confines of the City of Buffalo, it’s just adding to my toolkit, it’s making me a better human being. I'm truly enjoying the opportunities. I feel blessed to be able to do this work. 

Also for me, I think it's time for me to sit down and document some of my experiences and share some of my thoughts in various forms of writing. So, you know, I like textbooks and all that stuff, but you know, I do want to do this graphic novel that I've had in my mind for the last few years. So I'm hoping to find time to do that, slow down a little bit more, just enjoy life itself.

Thembi: Thank you so much. 

Wil: Thank you, Thembi.

Thembi: What a conversation. 

Wil: It's always a good time when we talk, boy, I'm telling you.

Thembi: Oh, yeah…

Wil: We should just record them joints and say, “Thembi and Wil’s Convo.”

Thembi: (Laughs.) That could be a whole separate podcast for real, right? 

Wil: Yeah, it could be. It could be. For real. 

Thembi: Mmm-hmm…

Wil: But I appreciate the opportunity. You know, you’re one of my favorite people. I certainly, I mean, you constantly keep me elevating, because I'm like, okay, would Thembi go for this? (Laughs.)

Thembi: I love that! Yes. What? What would Thembi do? Would she? Would she be down for this? And the answer is often – No. No, she wouldn’t…nope.

(Laughter.)

Wil: No, she would not go for that. Absolutely not. So I'd better figure it out.

Thembi: No, she wouldn’t…so yeah, let me do the same. (Laughs.) All right. So we're definitely going to have to return and check in with you at a later point to see what you're up to, and how we are shaping the world toward this beautiful, inclusive vision that you have of equity of the entire ecosystem. Not just the humans, but of any and everything on our planet. Thank you, Wil. Until next time.

Wil: Thank you. Take care.

KeyBARD is produced, written, and hosted by Thembi Duncan. Theme music by Sycho Sid. Visit us on Instagram @Keybard_IG. 

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Thembi Duncan

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Wil Green, II

Guest